18 Comments

omg love all your writing and this one so much! soooo fun to read and i think deeply fascinating how quickly the demure has become immediately detached from the queer trans ironic origins and straight into a reification of normative feminitity, its so hard to watch and I think extremely apt for this political moment in which historical genealogy is so neglected (liberal individualistic coconut pilled vs historical materialist internationalist coconut tree), which is why I so appreciate your research work and think it is deeply important. Mannersmaxxing is sooooooooo good, reminded me of two things, both the need for the expansion of "the trend", and thus corporate power into more and more minute fractions of our lives in order to continue the rate of accumulation, and an acknowledgement of the surveillance culture we live in where policing one's body becomes an internal behavior. I'm so curious also what the intensification of class aspiration through mannersmaxxing means for the economy. Feeling like Jaden Smith political and economic state of the world rn!! That being said, I would love to learn how to play bridge and arrange flowers.

Also when I grow up i want to be as brave as your sister <3

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omg wtf, i love this comment???? maybe you should write a substack on manners because this is giving juicyyy phd dissertation. and same, a floral arrangement class sounds real nice. thank you for reading!!!

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WHEW! this is everything I wanted to read & more. so glad you name that the “golden rule” & similar rules “were instruments of violence” & “tools of misogyny and racism.” A lot of the etiquette pieces here & elsewhere fail to recognize that (unsurprisingly)

I forget who told me this, but it was in the context of mental health support: treat people how THEY want to be treated. A much better maxim to live by, imo

Such an excellent read (also loved your sister’s insights at the end!!)

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i love that principle of treating others how they want to be treated! it's so easy to project my own norms/behavioral preferences on others.

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This was really good. Slightly tangential to your main points, but I have worked with K-12 kids for ~6 years now and have noticed a real difference in behaviour recently compared to when I started. Some changes are for the better, I think, like being more honest, but this has also resulted in more frequent judgemental comments and general self-centredness. More kids (especially those between 6-12) are silent, easily embarrassed, and very hesitant to participate or speak in groups of their peers. I struggle frequently with how to teach them to consider the people around them without instilling arbitrary and stifling norms in them, which can be extra tough for some neurodivergent students.

I really like this comment of yours: "politeness should not be the end-all-be-all for any society. manners are not a replacement for the things that a truly good society should provide for its people, like equitable access to clean water and mental health support."

It's definitely important to consider when politeness being used as an extension of genuine care, community, and support being carried out vs. when it's an empty gesture used to keep up appearances. The former is what I hope to teach my students 🤍

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love your insights from working with K-12 kids, that is so interesting. your students are lucky to have you as a mentor :)

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truly terrifying the point to which our lives and behaviors have become aestheticized and commodified ... i think you are sooo on the money about behaviors as an identity signal being the Next Thing. tomato-tart-girl line too accurate (and a little Nara Smith-y? interesting intersection there) especially given the peak of consumption culture and constant marketing we seem to be experiencing lately. this feels like a natural turning point from underconsumption-core -- don't consume, instead exhibit these behaviors and actions that are (theoretically) free! (but will inevitably be mined for marketing) anyways amazing + well-researched as always!!!!!!! a great read for my morning.

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ok that’s brilliant what you said about the connection with underconsumptioncore!!! another behavior that’s aestheticized…don’t buy, just act in ways that companies will use to market anyways to sell you more things 🤯

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This essay and the comments are so 🫡🫡 Also thank you for talking about the potential downsides to idolizing politeness and strictly enforced cultural/societal norms! My partner is mixed and despite being born in and growing up in Japan, he will never get citizenship there bcs his father is American and mother is Korean - he obviously speaks Japanese fluently (first language!) but always gets surprised little digs about how “good” his Japanese is when he goes home. And the bullying he got as a kid for looking different was so intense and cruel. Yet he and his sisters were also child models bcs commercially, it was “appealing” to look “different.” So fucked up. But he also loves it, because it is home. Idk, just a very different perspective on Japanese culture than you get from the almost-mythical western idolization of it

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this Brenda Hashtag clip came to mind: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C687JAZt5Dj/?igsh=MXA2c3g0NXFnN211OQ==

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yes, omg such a relevant clip! personal style is so much more all-encompassing than clothes...it's like about everything BUT clothes in a way

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OOF that's so interesting re: the early selling etiquette via books and magazines. I never considered that people would need to be taught to care about the things early "women's" magazines were selling but obviously they would.

It reminds me of something I saw someone on tiktok talking about (I think about this video ALL THE TIME but I can never remember their name sadly) where they called the desire to not wear the same coat season after season "rich person cosplay". They were talking about fast fashion but it's so applicable in so many places which is why I never stop thinking about it... but yeah rich person cosplay via manners damn...

anyways another banger ss from viv🤌🏼

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sooo true fiona! it's like...rich people have rules about clothes and then once non-rich people "figure it out" they're like hmm we need more ways to stratify our status so let's come up with arbitrary behavior to designate rich vs not

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THANK YOU. I needed this explanation of what has been Going On in memes, posts, etc on seemingly all platforms

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it's creeping into a lot of content online isnt it!! and manifesting on different platforms in different ways...

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I'll start by saying I liked your essay, and you make good points. That being said, I've been finding a lot of fashion and culture pieces on substack try to talk about broader political issues in a way that feels a little under-developed to me. I kind of felt that way about your inclusion of the "demure" trend and the trans women who created it. Well-intentioned, but the pronoun usage in the paragraph doesn't feel considered, and the analysis is too short to come off as much more than a paid lip-service.

Like: The part where you talk about westerners viewing Japan as utopian was a really good point and thoughtful argument for the piece- especially the connections to racism that were brought up. Though I think there were some missed opportunities for deeper analysis. Like, Japan has an epidemic of sexual harassment and SA despite being seen as this uber "polite" society. And for a piece that centers women, that could be a really salient point. Japan is also pretty behind when it comes to humanitarian rights for LGBT people- a potential opportunity to have connected back to the women who created the "demure" trend.

Your sisters point that: "good manners boil down to being self-aware and informed about the world—thinking about things bigger than yourself" is great and I think you could've spun that idea out into a great closing. Perhaps, that idea is truly the most radical millennial/gen Z maxim.

And I know this is unsolicited critique, so sorry if it comes off the wrong way. I really don't mean anything too harsh by it.

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first of all, i’m adding « manufactured insecurity » into my dictionary, immediately! second of all this is a phenomenal post because mannersmaxxing really highlights how etiquette/politeness is seen as one of the last straws for upper wealthier classes are grasping to distinguish those who are true to this or mimicking that lifestyle. i find it interesting to look at this through the rise of influencers and the role they play in creating or perpetuating new -core’s for their followers to get hooked on. we’ve seen how influencers benefit from social mobility, and the hyperfocus on aesthetics on social media definitely democratizes who can cosplay as wealthy and upper class (e.g., dress like this if you want to look like old money, do these things to attract X type of person). it feels like mannersmaxxing is the last type of attempt that people are using to distinguish who looks like they belong to a certain group vs. who actually abides by the rules/norms/behaviors of that group. since etiquette is often a very unspoken and invisible domain, it can be a good indicator for those types of people looking to sift out the "wannabes" (for a lack of a better word).

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I really love this piece and how you and your friend kana also explored the downsides of strict Japanese manners, I was unaware of this reality so it’s good to hear from someone who has directly experienced its effects! On the other hand, I resonated so much with the difference of manners between each culture. I come from South America and currently live in Miami, so I have the opportunity to interact with people of many different cultures and it’s so easy to see the differences even between other South American nationalities, which often have a lot of similarities but at the same time we surprisingly don’t. But anyway I really enjoyed the piece, thank you so much for sharing!

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